It's not just a religious objection (to abortion) though. And while the majority of people believe it's a woman's right to 'choose'...what a choice that must be. To say the right to choose doesn't imply being for abortion doesn't appear logical to me. It's like saying 'I believe the State should be able to choose to execute people, but I'm not necessarily for it. Maybe it's a site-specific thing; if you're on death row your attitude might change.
To say there shouldn't be any time restriction for abortions, that ultimately it's the woman's choice, is even more disturbing than I can express. But hey, I'm only a man, who, by the way, would never have put myself in that position. (If men could get pregnant) Unless I was raped. Is there really any excuse for late abortions for the majority of women? Just asking, because I always thought you were intelligent, and were so in tune with your bodies.
Welcome to The Tangled Branch! Join us.
Sadducee
Re: Sadducee
Well Colm, you've forced me to log in. I checked in on TTB on occasion recently but have been so horrified by the mass shootings I have not wanted to discuss anything.
The very word "abortion" is repugnant to me. We, you and I, have discussed our admiration for Jainists in the past. Have lamented our carnivorous human appetites and expressed a wish to live more gently among our fellow living creatures. So I suppose you wonder how I can write a poem seemingly in support of abortion.
During theological studies I got a pretty good dose of legal ethics in a class titled "The Moral Life" taught by a law professor at a liberal Catholic women's university. He gave us an example of a moral dilemma: there is a severe form of spina bifida that causes a fetus to be born into pretty much a persistent vegetative state.
Often those babies become wards of the state. They are warehoused. They are perfectly healthy bodies with perfectly healthy organs that could be harvested for transplant without ending life--things like one of their kidneys, parts of their livers, bone marrow. Those body parts could save the lives of other babies that could go on to live healthy, productive---possibly brilliant lives that might contribute much to society. The temptation would be great. I am not simply saying those babies should have been aborted, I saw through that professors example how fiddling with lives is terribly complicated. And to call all abortions the murder of human beings (from conception on as is being considered in some states) should be questioned.
What about the 12-year-old girl that has been impregnated by her own father? Or the Downs syndrome woman who can't even say how she got pregnant? It happens. Should the life of the mother be sacrificed rather than abort a fetus? THere are other less obvious reasons as well.
So here I am discussing abortion even though I didn't intend "Sadducee" to be a defense of abortion or even about abortion. Its about a group of people objecting to a right that was granted in the US constitution being rescinded on religious grounds.
Using contraception is the next stated target of the more radical ones
The very word "abortion" is repugnant to me. We, you and I, have discussed our admiration for Jainists in the past. Have lamented our carnivorous human appetites and expressed a wish to live more gently among our fellow living creatures. So I suppose you wonder how I can write a poem seemingly in support of abortion.
During theological studies I got a pretty good dose of legal ethics in a class titled "The Moral Life" taught by a law professor at a liberal Catholic women's university. He gave us an example of a moral dilemma: there is a severe form of spina bifida that causes a fetus to be born into pretty much a persistent vegetative state.
Often those babies become wards of the state. They are warehoused. They are perfectly healthy bodies with perfectly healthy organs that could be harvested for transplant without ending life--things like one of their kidneys, parts of their livers, bone marrow. Those body parts could save the lives of other babies that could go on to live healthy, productive---possibly brilliant lives that might contribute much to society. The temptation would be great. I am not simply saying those babies should have been aborted, I saw through that professors example how fiddling with lives is terribly complicated. And to call all abortions the murder of human beings (from conception on as is being considered in some states) should be questioned.
What about the 12-year-old girl that has been impregnated by her own father? Or the Downs syndrome woman who can't even say how she got pregnant? It happens. Should the life of the mother be sacrificed rather than abort a fetus? THere are other less obvious reasons as well.
So here I am discussing abortion even though I didn't intend "Sadducee" to be a defense of abortion or even about abortion. Its about a group of people objecting to a right that was granted in the US constitution being rescinded on religious grounds.
Using contraception is the next stated target of the more radical ones
Re: Sadducee
Hi Linda,
Apols for hijacking your poem.
A final word. I do understand there are circumstances where it should be considered. One of my biggest issues is the numbers; 890,000 in the USA last year. During the fertile life of an American woman about 30 million legal abortions are carried out. There were 6,700 here last year, about 50% less USA, and there's (mostly) a 12 week limit here. It seems to me that many of these abortions are due to stupidity or laziness, or to be blunt...they are just alternative forms of contraception, and at 24 weeks, the 'removal' of a viable human should be called out for what it really is!
Your birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007, ours is falling too. As our populations age we may regret all this.
possibly brilliant lives that might contribute much to society. Yes indeed, how many of them have we removed?
Back to your poem, Linda.
And our thoughts are with you. How the police stayed outside for so long, and handcuffed parents! Trump's 'arm the teachers' will only encourage the NRA! What'll happen in that case would be the teachers killing the kids!
Apols for hijacking your poem.
A final word. I do understand there are circumstances where it should be considered. One of my biggest issues is the numbers; 890,000 in the USA last year. During the fertile life of an American woman about 30 million legal abortions are carried out. There were 6,700 here last year, about 50% less USA, and there's (mostly) a 12 week limit here. It seems to me that many of these abortions are due to stupidity or laziness, or to be blunt...they are just alternative forms of contraception, and at 24 weeks, the 'removal' of a viable human should be called out for what it really is!
Your birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007, ours is falling too. As our populations age we may regret all this.
possibly brilliant lives that might contribute much to society. Yes indeed, how many of them have we removed?
Back to your poem, Linda.
And our thoughts are with you. How the police stayed outside for so long, and handcuffed parents! Trump's 'arm the teachers' will only encourage the NRA! What'll happen in that case would be the teachers killing the kids!
Re: Sadducee
Christianity and I are not on good terms, and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon. The same holds true for my relationship with politics. So I'm not entering the discussion, but I did want to chime in and say it's a brilliant poem, no matter which side of the fence you're on.
Re: Sadducee
Colm, never ever apologize for "hijacking" one of my writes unless you are posting an ad for athletic shoes or something. Many of my posts are quick writes that I hope will open conversations that could go anywhere. That's what I like about these forums.
Of course I also hope to improve on what I've written--each holds an even weight for me.
Dan, thank you for your positive feedback,
as a former confessed lapel-shaking atheist (as opposed to bible thumping Christian) I relate. But I have undergone a conversion of sorts. I think we live immersed in the influence of whatever is the predominant religion of our particular culture and it influences our thinking in ways of which we are unaware. Knowing how canonization of scripture came to be, the political striving for power as it is altered through time and geography was absolutely liberating for me, as was seeing underlying themes that bind humanity together.
I also confess to being a politics wonk. It's a terrible affliction.
Of course I also hope to improve on what I've written--each holds an even weight for me.
Dan, thank you for your positive feedback,
as a former confessed lapel-shaking atheist (as opposed to bible thumping Christian) I relate. But I have undergone a conversion of sorts. I think we live immersed in the influence of whatever is the predominant religion of our particular culture and it influences our thinking in ways of which we are unaware. Knowing how canonization of scripture came to be, the political striving for power as it is altered through time and geography was absolutely liberating for me, as was seeing underlying themes that bind humanity together.
I also confess to being a politics wonk. It's a terrible affliction.
Re: Sadducee
you know, near every podiatrist on the continent is notorious for sticking foot in mouth. sorry. i had to. 
beautiful poem.
beautiful poem.
Re: Sadducee
I have just discovered this poem and it is beyond painful. I got no connection abortion and still don't though it may serve that discussion. It is tragic enough in the clear eyed question at the end given the kneeling and serving before. The male god is a sad one so needy and so uncaring. The truth has surely always been that all humans (before science started took over) came from a woman, none despite the generous supply of sperm have emerged from men. You would think a little humility on the part of men towards women would not be too much to ask.
Re: Sadducee
Thank you both, Greg and Dave. Little did I know when I wrote this there would be a woman running for president. The night Obama was declared the winner in 2008, my partner, who is black, asked if I thought there'd be a backlash. It was a rhetorical question--he knew only too well. But who knew it would put a thing like Trump in office. And now, the targeting of women will be next I'm afraid. However--can't deport us all.